Wednesday, September 14, 2011

Just where does UGA Rank during "The Slide"?

My "friend" BuLLDawg likes to post the total number of victories for the teams in D-I football frequently, so that he can show us the fall of the Georgia program. As a comment to one of my recent blogs, he posted his findings, listing Georgia as ranking #29 in FBS for wins from 2006-week 2 of 2011. However, I submit that there are some teams that get by a little easier than others. So, I did my own quick tracking of these wins.

What I decided to do, was count wins against BCS Teams. That's wins against teams in BCS conferences (at the time of competition) and Notre Dame, which is the only independent BCS school.

(I will note that I did this in two ways - for teams IN BCS conferences, I went through the schedules and reduced the number of victories from BuLLDawg's work by the number of victories over non-bcs schools. For teams NOT in BCS conferences, I went through the schedules and counted wins and losses against BCS schools.

Here are my results:

Yes, Georgia has only 44 wins in the last 5 years + 2 games. That is not an incredibly encouraging statistic, when you compare it to total wins by many of the nation's programs. HOWEVER, when you look PURELY at BCS conference schools, Georgia ranks #10 in wins over that time period. Also important to note, is that UGA has the 3rd lowest number of wins deducted from its schedule. USC (3) and Oregon (9) are the only teams with fewer "inflating" wins.

Of the schools vying to become AQs, Boise State definitely looks to be at the Head of the Class, boasting a 7-1 record against BCS schools over the past 6 years. Of course, that means that in the past 6 seasons, they haven't played one season's worth of BCS schools. Well, I guess they've played a conference schedule's worth...and they're 7-1. Not too bad. TCU's 9-3 record is pretty good as well. Of course, TCU becomes a BCS school next season.

Anyway, I did all of that to say what some people are considering the end of the world, the destruction of the program, the worst time imaginable for Georgia Football, we're the 10th winningest program against BCS competition. (PS...that's higher than our All-Time Wins ranking of 13th)


**** I will admit that I was surprised NOT to see Alabama on BuLLDawg's list. I do not know why he left them off. After completing my work, I went back to check on Bama....they have 37 wins since 2006, and therefore should be listed above UGA, pushing us to #11. I now wonder if BuLLDawg was selective in his research, or if it was on oversight when publishing his findings.


Mr. Sanchez said...


I'd say BCS wins skews numbers too. BCS conference teams are naturally gonna be higher, because that's their conference schedule. But does beating up on vandy really mean more than beating Nevada or Utah (since they were not BCS before this year)? If there was like a top 50, like basketball's rpi rankings, or top 25 although I'd want it a bit deeper than 25, that'd probably be a much better gauge.

BuLLdawg said...

Good morning Ben Dukes, sir. Do you have a URL Link to a post you say I wrote to your blog sir yesterday ? I thought you removed my posts, because you couldn’t think of anything to say, except that my posts are laughable sir ? Are you now leaving my posts on your blog ? Only selected posts ? I see you referring to my post on your blog, but I see nothing here I can click in this blog that takes me to such post. Are you sure you left it ?

Incredibly encouraging statistic ? This is not an incredibly encouraging what ? Your Won Lost Record is not a statistic. It is called your Won Lost Record.

As for wins over BCS schools, as has already been pointed out by 100 percent of the posts remaining on your blog today, sir :

(1) Georgia LOST to Central Florida 3 games ago sir. Perhaps you remember that game, sir ? They are not a BCS school and they BEAT Mark Richt’s “coaching staff” for which he and he alone is responsible. Central Florida lost to NC State a 4-Loss team, a 7-6 Kansas State and to Southern Mississippi a 5-Loss team, but Mark Richt could not beat them. Do we ADD ONE + 1 or - 1 for that loss, using your analysis ? Sorry, to be just a little confused, sir. You did what ? You took all the wins by Georgia after 2005 season through today, and you added up that we beat “BCS” schools at the rate of # 10 best in the nation ? I thought that Mark Richt said in his tour of the state all Summer, that he is the # 4 best college coach in all of America when in fact over this period YOU WANT TO DISCUSS BEN DUKES AFTER 2005 TO TODAY. Of course, in this timeframe you discuss after 2005, Mark Richt on the field is not the # 4 best coach in his own CONFERENCE, let alone the nation. If a win over a NON-BCS school doesn’t count in wins and a 4-9 Washington hauls up and utterly destroys in a blow-out Boise State in 2007, Washington gets NO CREDIT for that win ? You remember Ben, sir, that you said Boise State is 7-1 vs “BCS” schools after 2005 through today sir ? This is the 1. The loss by Boise State. The 1 lone BCS Loss. It was 2007 to a 4-9 Washington. I submit sir, that Washington gets a + 1 or more for that win, in view of the fact “BCS” Washington was 4-9 that 2007 season.

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(2) Georgia LOST to Boise State. Again, another of your teams you discuss in your 2 paragraphs squirming in your chair removing my posts because you don’t like it that Georgia has 21 losses after 2005, over 4 games a season average, and now is 0-2. This game was a blow-out by Boise State. According to your analysis, such a win – had we beat Boise State would NOT COUNT. But, the LOSS, sir ? If you + 1 or – 1 or whatever you did to make Mark Richt # 10 instead of # 30 after 2005 through today, does not the blow-out loss to NON-BCS Boise State then + 1 or – 1 too ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(3) I will give you a few more examples, in case you find them laughable too, and want to delete this post, or just whichever posts you do desire to remove calling them laughable when you yourself devote your blog for the day or for the week to my post, without URL Link to click to go see it. Why is that, by the way Ben Dukes, sir ? Vandie a 4-win team in 2006 beat UGA. 4-8 Vandie, including the win over Mark Richt 2006, is an equivalent win by Vandie as is the win by UGA in 2006 over the team who eventually would end up # 9 in the AP Poll Auburn ? Would it not be correct, using your shallow (as stated by all posters whose replies now sit in reply to you sir) analysis of a win is only a win if it is over a BCS school, then to + 1 or - 1 for the Vandie Loss ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

BuLLdawg said...

(4) If a win over a NON-BCS does NOT count, does not a LOSS to a NON-BCS count like double or something ? Help me out here please Ben Dukes. I apologize for actually thinking we might not be doing very well after 2005.

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(5) Mark Richt spend all Summer on his Tour and he told us that he was the # 4 best college football coach in all of America. I do not specifically recall him saying “of BCS schools” or in wins over BCS schools. He just said he was the # 4 best in the nation. Looks like the best you can come up with is # 10 best. Your graphics are frankly kind of hard to read. In fact, your whole blog is hard to read with the contrast you have. Maybe that explains 2 responses, and 1 of them by me, whose post you will remove, I presume ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(6) LOSS to 9-4 Georgia tek 2008 who lost to 8-5 NC 8-5 LSU and to 5-7 VA in 2008 beat us. Do we not add one or subtract one for that game too, sir ? + 1 or – 1 for the LOSS to this team ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(7) LOSS to 5-7 Colorado beat us 2010. Is not this loss a + 1 or – 1 ? Just having a real hard time, sir, following which selected teams are or are not + 1 or – 1. I think you would have been better off Ben Dukes sir and love watching you on the football field, sir, to have not discussed that you think that the Big East is the same as The SEC and that you think the ACC is the same as The SEC and any win over the Big East or ACC counts the same as any win over ANY SEC team. Especially over Vandie, obviously, for example.

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(8) LOSS to 9-4 Okie State 2009 beat us, and Okie State too did not end up in the AP Poll Top 25. Would this also not be a – 1 or a + 1 on your analysis that any BCS school you beat counts, any LOSS to an UNWORTHY OPPONENT – should then count DOUBLE at least, right ? Bad Loss ? Loss to a team not even in the Top 25 for that season when it is over ? How about the teams like the # 6 above 9-4 Georgia tek 2008 who had they not beat Mark Richt absolutely are not finishing the season in the Top 25 ? Is that too not a + 1 or – 1 ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(9) LOSS to 5-Loss SC 2010 blow-out, is that a + 1 or – 1, sir ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(10) LOSS to 4-Loss Missy State in a blow-out 2010, is that not a – 1 or a + 1, or is Georgia full of the same talent level as Missy State now, that we consider ourselves equal or worse to Missy State, nowadays in this incredibly encouraging statistic ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(11) 4-Loss LSU 2009, is that a -1 or a + 1 in your new Won / Lost revised totals, sir ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(12) LOSS to 7-6 vols 2009 ? + 1 or -1 ? Having a hard time following just what is a win and what isn’t, if it is ok to dare to ask for explanation how the # 30 team in NCAA wins after 2005 became somehow for the crowd the # 10 best in the nation ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

BuLLdawg said...

(14) LOSS to 6-Loss SC 2007 a 6-6 BCS school team by your reasoning who did not even play a Bowl Game 2007. Is this too a + 1 or a – 1 ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(15) LOSS to 4-LOSS vols in a blow-out over us 2007 yet the vols 2007 lost to the likes of 7-6 CA, and to 7-6 AL but they beat us. Is this a + 1 or a – 1 too ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(16) LOSS to 4-Loss vols 2006 another blow-out over us. Is this a good Loss, or should we – 1 or + 1 this one too ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(17) LOSS to 4-8 Vandie 2006 ? + 1 or – 1 Ben ?

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

(18) LOSS to 5-Loss Kentucky 2006, + 1 or – 1. Sorry, I just don’t follow that every team in every BCS Conference are all equal. Is this a + 1 or a – 1 just so I will know and be able to sit back in my chair after we LOSE yet another game and say “Oh Bulldawg, that doesn’t COUNT. Or Oh, Bulldawg that counts DOUBLE.”

Am I right Ben Dukes, sir ?

In America, I really do appreciate you letting me have my reply to you sir.

The University of Georgia Bulldogs are # 11 all-time in 1-A wins.

The University of Georgia Bulldogs after 2005 are # 30 in 1-A wins.

You might have been better off leaving it at that, but if not and this what we are to discuss instead, please advise so I can revise my list for you sir which ones of these specific games for Mark Richt, I do a + 1 or a – 1 for ?

Thank you kindly, Ben Dukes, sir.

Ben Dukes said...

BuLLDawg -

Look back through my comments and you'll see that I've never removed a single one of your comments. I don't remove people's comments, because I'm not afraid of contrary opinion.

I didn't mention losses to Non-BCS schools, because then I'd have to go through and mention every time any one of the schools you listed lost to Non-BCS schools, which has happened plenty.

You counted wins, so I counted wins. You left out Alabama for some reason, I did not.

I did not link your comment, because it was a comment on another blog on my page. Why would I need to link it? Either people read it, or they didn't...but you didn't offer any information that I didn't offer. In fact, I went into detail about how I obtained the list, and that the "total wins" (which are evident in my graphic) were from your initial list.

Sorry if you aren't getting the "credit" you believe you deserve. Write your own blog, and then people will come join you in your hatred of Mark Richt.

You write sensationalist crap, and pretend that backing it up with a W/L record is all of the foundation you need. You're wrong, though. There is an ebb and flow to football, teams climb, and fall, and climb again. The Question is, does the team have a coach who knows how to win Championships.

This team does.

You bore me.

Ben Dukes said...

BuLLDawg -

If you have a problem with reading the blog, I suggest you upgrade your technology. White on Black is a pretty easy way to read. The graphics are quite clear on every computer I use, including smartphones.


You brought in Raw Wins. As such, you wouldn't need to re-calculate anything for BCS-CONFERENCES only. I already did that. And losses wouldn't factor in, because we're talking RAW VICTORIES here. My point is, you use a RAW VICTORY list that inflates teams who play weaker schedules.

Yes, Georgia has faltered in recent years. I have never argued that fact. Georgia has also played a more BCS-laden schedule than the majority of the teams you mention. There's no way you can argue that fact.

Did we lose to some teams we shouldn't? Yes we did.

Could that at all been a result of the tougher schedule? In some cases it could, but I'm not here to make excuses. I simply provided the data.

Sorry if I did a better job of it than you did. Deal with it.

BuLLdawg said...

Ok, thank you Ben Dukes.

What a load of fun to watch on the football field you are, sir.

Thank you for that, too, sir.

Somehow, I get the feeling that you think that I don't mean that, or how much I wish that we were not on a slide.

Not losing 21 games the last 5 years, including as you say Ben Dukes to teams we should not have lost to - of that, there is no argument.

There is a group of posters, affectionately knows as who dream up excuses for every loss.

Dream up ways to turn your head sideways and then - well hold your breath and lift this arm up this way - and, make it all seem that Mark Richt and his coaching staff have just been awesome.

Of course, sir you know that isn't the case. And, I am just as certain sir, that you cringe to think what would happen with a game between his coaching staff and the one at Alabama, were we to make to that game, which I have said from and continuing to this day about this season of 11-3 for us.

Further, I know in your heart of hearts, that you absolutely should be telling the players and the coaches to GATA, and that they must not this season, as they have done, not lose to these lowly football teams they lose to every year nowadays.

As for Alabama, they vacated 11 wins which I will not list without the caveat; not sure where such a list shows them with 49 not 38. Now, how many wins is we have Ben Dukes after 2005 by comparison on the football field ?

Am I supposed to not watch this game this Saturday vs Coastal Carolina because Ben Dukes says it doesn't count ?

If the win doesn't count, why play the game ?

If the win doesn't count, shouldn't a loss to such a team like UCF for example like 3 losses ?

No, Ben Dukes, we will have to make do with



according to NCAA.

And, while there are teams who actually lose more often to such NON-BCS schools as Georgia, there really are not any of the top teams, certainly none of the Top 10 who have lost as many games as Mark Richt and his coaching staff have lost to teams who did not come close to the talent level we in fact have.

45 NFL Bulldogs and here we are # 11 all-time in 1-A wins and we have to redefine wins and losses, and lament in reply to those replies that well yes :

Georgia loses games they should not have, and I suggest at a higher level than is acceptable or obtained by other top programs.

When do you admit we are but 3 wins and now 10 losses vs teams who actually finished in the AP Poll Top 10 all 11 years now ?

Is then sir, how then that you see us a Top 10 team in the nation over the course of these last 6 seasons, all games after 2005, when in fact I know you know that is total sensationalist hogwash in support of a coach and his staff who have not gotten the job done to the point where the Bulldog nation - except for yourself - are not satisfied.

Oh, if they only would run in here, all of them and read your post today sir on this blog, they would know we aren't doing poorly at all these last 6 years now after 2005, but instead a Top 10 team : Ben Dukes has thusly decreed it.

Smoke and mirrors will not fix our issues Ben Dukes. It's like white background you type the reply to on with black letters. Most folks look at what is, and see it as correct; others turn their heads to the side, hold their breath and there you have it, we aren't doing poorly at all.

When, your list comes up with us # 10 in the nation, obviously Ben Dukes, I think you will admit you know we aren't the # 10 team in the nation after 2005 through today ?

I hope you can say that to me. We'll see.

Holla said...

We're 11th, including Alabama. Ahem.

In the seasons since 2005, we have finished top ten twice, in 2007 and 2008. 2008 we were right no the cusp, and 2007 we were #2. So, that's two seasons averaging 5-6. Then we have three other seasons, one where we finished ranked (2006), and two where we did not finsihed ranked at all.

But if you look at all the BCS conference schools (plus Notre Dame) over the same time span, most teams have ups and downs and so our two top ten finishes and one ranked finish probably is enough to get us up towards the top ten in that time span. Very few teams consistently finish in the top ten for five seasons in a row. Those that do will end up in the top few slots on a list like this. The rest of the top ten will be teams that had some ups and downs along the way.

This doesn't prove fans should be happy right now. Just that the wins metric BuLLDawg originally used doesn't really show us a reason to be upset. Other measures might.

BuLLdawg said...

Ok, what other measures might show us poorly for all the years after 2005 through today ?

2008 we started out # 1 pre-season in the AP Poll and ended up # 13 in the AP Poll. Had we started out # 13 in the AP Poll, we would not have been ranked at all.

2006 was the last season ( 6 seasons ago now ) that we beat a team who finished that season in the AP Poll Top 10. We beat # 9 Auburn. We also Lost to a 4-8 Vandie and to a 5-Loss Kentucky. We were a 4-Loss team ourselves. We can call 2006 a season we were ranked, barely.

2009 was a throw-away season totally.

2010 well you have to go back 58 years to 1953 to find an UGA team who Lost more games than we Lost.

2011 I know this sounds Homer, but 2011 could be and should be a top season at 11-3 as I still see it. I know, I know, 0-2. I know RB are very inexperienced - not making excuses - it is what it is. Our QB however has been on our Campus since he started practicing with the team for the bowl game December 2008, and was redshirted for the 2009 season. He Started every game 2010 and 2011 to-date. He is not inexperienced and should be doing well this season; as he most assuredly did as well as he could last season too. I feel Aaron Murray was not only our Best Player All Season Long last year, but that there really is no 2nd Best. Aaron Murray clearly was our # 1 football player on our team all season last year without a doubt.

The 2007 season, Xon, early in the year ( much like I am certain this season will go ) early in the 2007 season we Lost to what would end up a 6-6 South Carolina team who did not even go to a bowl game and we were blown-out by at best an Average vols team - when the vols team lost to a 7-6 Alabama and to a 7-6 California, neither of which were any good whatsoever. The season, therefore, like this 2011 season was very much a season in which we were down early. We came back in 2007 and beat some nice teams who finished in the AP Poll along about # 15 to # 25 or so, about 3 of those. LSU had you recall also beat those 3 same teams; but LSU won 2 games against teams who finished in the AP Poll Top 10 - and, therefore we did not get to play LSU in 2007 - because of these 2 horrid losses to South Carolina and to the vols by the blow-out. 2007 we did as well as we could be expected to do with those 2 early losses. Still, I would have preferred to play an opponent who ended that season in the AP Poll Top 10 - I think we were almost deserving of such a bowl opponent. Bottom line on 2007, it was not what it could have been - and, there is no excuse for losing to that vols team in that fashion and no excuse for the huge big season ruining loss to a sorry South Carolina team 2007.

I would describe the period after the 2005 season through today, as a period of outside the Top 25 overall for the 6 seasons since the 2005 season. We might inch into a Top 25 spot for the last 6 seasons once this season is over. We should. But, there is no way under the God's Green Earth that this football team is a Top 10 football team after 2005 through today taken as a whole.

BuLLdawg said...

It has been a period of turmoil, after 2005 through this very day today of 3 Consecutive Losses marked by :

(And, good luck trying to make this sound like a Top 10 team after 2005 through this day, gentlemen.)

(1) Head-Scratching Losses & blow-outs
(2) Arrests after Arrests after 2005 until 2011
(3) 2011 has been marred markedly by the 26 players we gave scholarships to who none of them have played in 2011 but they all 26 were on the roster 2010 and we had every reason to suspect that that would play well 2011 at this time last year. Now, these 26 are gone. Academic Failures 2011, Transferred out disgruntled 2011. Kicked-off the team for the Fulmer Cup we won in 2010 National Championship not here for 2011. etc. 26 scholarships which instead we gave out a host of scholarships to walk-ons none of whom yet have played on offense or defense, and some who have played on special teams, or might see the field in this game against Coastal Carolina. This is instead of what should have been absolute stars for us this 2011 season, and no longer are on the roster.
(4) Not that great a season 2006.
(5) Great season 2007 (without the opportunity to prove ourselves late because of sad losses that made us mad early to SC & blow-out by vols.)
(6) Just nothing but bad press all of 2008 to put a total damper on a season with 22 out partying the night we were for the 1st time in our entire history ranked pre-season # 1 by every single poll all the way through playing 3 good teams all of 2008 only to give up consecutive points against us of 29, 31, and 42 points all 3 losses therefore. And, we played no one else of note 2008 except for these 3 demoralizing losses. It is this 2008 season that most fans point to as to our faltering beginning. As I see it, it started after the 2005 season.
(7) 2009 can be best described as a total loss.
(8) 2010 again go back to 1953 to find an UGA team who lost more games than we did last year.
(9) 2011 had better be a turn-around year - it could be special like 2007. It should be. It better be. We better run the table from here, as there is no reason for us to lose any other game.

Xon, are you saying that the :

# 11 all-time 1-A win program

who is in fact the :

# 30 all-time 1-A win program after 2005 season including all teams and all games on the field of play

should not be in the least disappointed ?

Should not have greater expectations ?

After 2005 through today is not good for us. There is no way to average out the seasons after 2005 through today and say we have been great or even good. And, there is no way that 2008 we ended up other than # 13 in the AP Poll because we started out # 1 and that reason only. 2008 I was upset and down; very disappointed in every way with bad press every single day of the season. 2009 I was numb. 2006 I was going like what happened ? 2010 was like ok, someone anyone please do something to salvage anything out of this and it never materialized. Then,, we get to this 2011 and we have posters trying to redefine how greatness is determined. How about instead for 2011 Xon that we try to get the staff and players to GATA the rest of the season - that THIS since after 2005 HAS to END. And, END NOW ?

Bman said...

If we are talking wins and losses - we are essentially talking winning percentage...AFAIK Richt still has one of the best in UGA history.

BuLLdawg said...

Really ?

Mark Richt has one of the best won / lost records, then, why is he is #30 in won / lost records for the last 6 seasons to-date, pray tell ?

Holla said...

"Xon, are you saying that the :

# 11 all-time 1-A win program

who is in fact the :

# 30 all-time 1-A win program after 2005 season including all teams and all games on the field of play

should not be in the least disappointed ?"

Nope. I never said that. In fact, I explicitly made that clear in my earlier comment.

BuLLdawg said...

For you to explicitly say that you are disappointed in our efforts after 2005, to have us with all this bad press all this 2011 with the 26 players no longer on this roster and not playing, who were on the roster last year and would have, had there not been this great exodus of football talent here at UGA 2011 after all the arrests after 2005 until 2011 off the field, and on the field to have all these games we did not win after 2005 to the tune where we are # 30 in 1-A wins on the field after 2005 instead of our # 11 all-time # 11 in 1-A wins all-time - one would say :

I am disappointed in the coaches and players that they must GATA.

Bman said...

So From 1954 through 1958 (five years) Bear Bryant had only 30 wins. From 1995 through 1999 Nick Saban had only 34 wins. Programs and coaches have ebb and flow years. What I am saying is that by winning percentage over his career, Richt is still head and shoulders above most coaches and that for any arbitrary time period coaches can look not so good. Hell, The late great Paul "Bear" Bryant went 1 and 9 in 1954.